This is to be the second of three re-uploaded posts from my old website. The last one will be along in due course; in the meantime, I urge you to cast an eye over this interview with the one and only Henry Rollins, conducted back in February 2008.
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Henry Rollins: singer, songwriter, poet, television presenter, author, actor, publisher, spoken word artist, political activist and “aging alternative icon” (his words, not mine). A Jack of all trades and a master of most, Rollins has come to mean many different things to many different people since he first entered the public consciousness in 1981 as the new frontman for seminal Californian punk outfit Black Flag.
Maybe you remember him from Rollins Band, his post-Flag collective which produced a well-known single – and MTV favorite – called ‘Liar’, among others. Perhaps you’ve caught his television show on the Independent Film Channel, which blends Rollins’ trademark cutting social commentary with live in-studio performances from artists such as Queens of the Stone Age and The Mars Volta. Horror buffs may recall his recent turn as a retired Marine Corps officer in the direct-to-DVD slasher sequel Wrong Turn 2: Dead End, while fans of the Jackass franchise are likely to recollect his memorable guest appearance in the first feature-length movie starring Johnny Knoxville and his band of merry miscreants. And so on, and so on, and so forth.
Ultimately, it matters not how you know him. The important part is that you probably do have some awareness of the man and his work, one way or another, and the prolific nature of Rollins’ output means that he’s never far from the public eye. When his heavily-tattooed forearms and muscled physique are taken into account – traits which serve to make him more recognizable still in an era which increasingly emphasizes style over substance – it’s hard to see him as anything other than a bona fide renaissance man for the 21st century.
On the off-chance that you’ve never heard the name “Henry Rollins” before today, however, it may prove edifying to know a couple of things about the man before you continue reading this interview. For instance, he has undertaken a series of tours with the United Service Organization in order to meet and entertain American troops who are stationed abroad; this willingness to put aside personal politics, which encompass a vehement dislike of George W. Bush and opposition to wars of all kinds, grants him membership to a small club of left-wing USO supporters which includes comedian (and would-be senator) Al Franken, as well as actor Robin Williams. He is also an outspoken advocate of gay rights, while being a staunch heterosexual himself, and he spent his formative years in a Maryland military school, which almost certainly helped to shape his strong work ethic.
Never one to rest on his laurels, 2008 is already shaping up to be a manic year for Henry. In January, he completed an 18-date European spoken-word tour before jetting off to South Africa in order to perform in Johannesburg and Cape Town. A North American jaunt occupies the bulk of February and March, before more shows in Europe beckon; furthermore, he also has another book in the pipeline and is endeavoring to pre-record as many episodes of his radio show, Harmony in My Head, as possible, in order to keep the program on the air during his grueling touring schedule.
Despite having all of the above projects on his plate, and probably several more besides, Mr. Rollins was kind enough to spend some time answering my questions. Due to the nature of this website, combined with Rollins’ recent inclination towards social and political commentary over and above his musical activities, the bulk of the enquiries pertain to matters such as the War on Terror, George W. Bush’s perennial misbehavior and the forthcoming US general election; nevertheless, Black Flag, the state of the music industry, modern technology and workout tips also cropped up during the course of our tête-à-tête.
Without further ado, then…
Your dedication to your work, and to striving toward making the world a better place, is laudable indeed; however, do you sometimes feel as though you’re fighting a losing battle when you read the news and visit war-torn regions across the globe? After all, Bill Hicks warned us all of the dangers posed by the Bush dynasty, religious fundamentalism, censorship, intolerance and the ‘War on Drugs’ a long time ago and, listening to his work now, I can’t help but feel saddened to think that we’ve ostensibly learned nothing in the fourteen years since his death. Or, conversely, do you think we’re making some genuine headway on these fronts?
As soon as you give up, when you say they have won, then you give them all they want. In fact, you finally letting off is factored into their equation. They know that there will be a certain amount of people who will stop questioning and stop rousing rabbles, so to speak, and that’s why you can never relent. It’s that simple. I do think many things are getting better. I see improvement all over the place. There are millions of people in America who are pushing for change and trying to make things better. How can you turn your back on that?
As an outspoken critic of the war in Iraq, who has nevertheless put his feelings on the matter aside in order to tour military hospitals and meet those who have been most directly-affected by the conflict, what’s your general understanding of the troops’ attitude to the situation? Are they as angry as Michael Moore would have us believe, courtesy of Fahrenheit 9/11, or do they still stand behind President Bush and his war in spite of the horrors they’ve seen and suffered? WMD or no WMD, do they generally feel that the invasion was legitimate and necessary?
I don’t think you can paint them all with one brush. I get letters from soldiers of all branches all the time and it’s everything from dissatisfaction with Bush and the occupation of Iraq to them trying to convince me that they are doing the right thing. I think as this awful [conflict] drags on, and these guys and gals go into their 4th and 5th rotation, you will see things start to fray. They are, after all, just people. The troops, I like. This war, I don’t.
There has obviously been a lot of ire directed at the Bush administration over the last few years, particularly since the contentious invasion of Iraq, and many – myself included – would say that the bulk of this criticism is well-deserved indeed. However, it seems to me that much of Tony Blair’s culpability with regard to the War on Terror has been buried beneath an avalanche of anti-US sentiment, leaving Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld and co. to bear the brunt of the world’s odium alone. From what you’ve seen and heard on your travels, do you get the feeling that Blair’s role in supporting the war is being remembered accurately?
His role isn’t buried around my place by a long shot. I call him the “Ass-Vacuum of George Bush”, Bush, of course, being the “Butcher of Baghdad.” Tony Blair will get his whuppin’ via history. It will take a while for the dust to settle for everyone to fully understand what a little coward he turned out to be. It’s the end of an age. John Howard out, Blair out, Bush out. Things will change.
George W. Bush now has less than a year in office before he retires to his ranch in Crawford, Texas. Is there anything he could do over the next 11 months to redeem himself in your eyes and right some of the wrongs for which he’s been responsible since the year 2000?
Telling the truth and reporting to jail, that would be a start. Past that, no. He’ll sell the ranch at some point, he’s a city boy like me.
Several left-wing commentators, including Christopher Hitchens and Nick Cohen, have provided vocal support to the War on Terror despite their liberal leanings. Their reasons for so doing are varied, but a common theme was that of opposition to Saddam and the Taliban which, they felt, was perfectly congruent with their leftist distaste for tyranny and oppression. Have you ever found it difficult to reconcile your opposition to the WoT with the unpleasant nature of the Ba’ath Party and the Taliban, whose policies towards dissidents, women and social minorities (especially homosexuals) seem to fly in the face of your own liberal proclivities?
Not at all. The WoT is one thing. The invasion and occupation of Iraq is another, so is the exacerbating of Iran. The Taliban is fucked and they destroyed what was left of Afghanistan and they are truly bad guys. As far as Saddam, if the Iraqi people couldn’t take him out, they deserve him like we deserve Bush. It’s not for us to remove him. If we’re going to be the clearing house of whoop-ass then let’s go to the countries with no oil, like North Korea. The truth is, the Bush administration and their apologists don’t give a fuck about the Iraqi people. They want them to hurry up and submit so America can go in there and do business. If Bush was in Iraq to liberate those people, he would have gone in with an exit plan. There wasn’t one because there was never going to be an exit.
Some of the “allies” we in the West have made during the War on Terror – especially President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan and the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan – are somewhat less than savory in themselves, and we also seem happy to maintain a close friendship with the thoroughly-unpleasant leaders of Saudi Arabia. Is this “Better the devil you know…” attitude a fair stance to adopt in troubled and complicated times, or is it redolent of ill-disguised hypocrisy on the part of the Republicans and New Labour?
We do business with motherfuckers all the time. Our strange-as-hell relationship with Pakistan and their ISI isn’t new but it sure is curious. If a country has oil and they submit to America, then they have a chance of fair treatment as slaves. If they rebel or arm-up to protect themselves, then they are a rogue nation and a threat to all the good peoples of the world. It’s pretty glaring, the hypocrisy of all this.
On February 11, 2008, the Pentagon confirmed that it plans to charge six Guantanamo Bay inmates with crimes relating to the 9/11 attacks. These trials will probably be held before military tribunals, as opposed to civilian courts, and prosecutors apparently plan to seek the death penalty for the defendants. Given the grave nature of the allegations, not to mention the potentially-severe punishments if the accused are found guilty, shouldn’t transparency and legitimacy be the key goals of any legal proceedings which ensue? Is the Pentagon’s mooted plan to hold the trials behind closed doors at all defensible in your view?
I think it would be best for full disclosure, of course, but they will never allow that. So, no, I can’t stick [up] for that at all and have to wonder about the guilt of these people, such is my distrust of my government.
Given that the confessions of some of the prisoners in question, including those pertaining to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, stemmed from the use of infamous interrogation tactics such as waterboarding, it seems likely that the issue of torture will be brought to the forefront of the international debate once more. What’s your view of such procedures, and do you think they’re ever justifiable?
I am not a fan of torture. I believe the experts that say you don’t get good results. These guys just like to maim motherfuckers, that’s all. They should just cop to it.
Little over a year has elapsed since the highly-controversial execution of Saddam Hussein. Now that the dust has settled and most of the raw emotion subsided, how do you feel about the way in which the dictator was treated by his captors? Would you rather he’d been imprisoned instead of being killed, and do you think his trial would have been fairer if it had taken place outside Iraq?
I was in Dubai when that happened. I watched it online. I feel now the same way I felt then. I think the Shi’a blew it. They could have shown the world they were for peace and the future by giving him life in prison. I think the death penalty is despicable. I don’t know much about the actual trial itself as to its fairness, etc.
With a general election looming just around the corner, what are your hopes for the next administration, be it Democrat or Republican?
We have to get out of Iraq, really look at who hates us and ask why and not just heap bumper-sticker rhetoric at it, stop this destruction of the very foundations of America and stop the borrowing. Easier said than done, but that’s what has to happen. The current brand of capitalism is very, very destructive. It should have died with Milton Friedman.
As a long-standing supporter of equality for gays and lesbians, does it disturb you to note that Democratic forerunners Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have both refused to come out in favor of marriage rights for gay and lesbian couples? Do you think there’s any credibility in the reasoning used by both candidates – essentially, that the country “isn’t ready” for such a move – especially as one could argue that, in the not-too-distant past, many Americans wouldn’t have been ‘ready’ for a black or female President either?
They’re politicians. That makes them at least mostly full of it. If either one was to come out in favor of gay marriage, they would lose votes, it’s as simple as that. It’s pathetic that so many people are stuck in the Stone Age. I don’t know what else to say about it. It’s a damn shame they lack the courage to say ‘No’ to this bullshit. I guess I’ll have to do it for them.
In The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins cites a 1999 Gallup poll which “asked Americans whether they would vote for an otherwise well-qualified person who was a woman (95 per cent would), Roman Catholic (94 per cent would), Jew (92 per cent), black (92 per cent), Mormon (79 per cent), homosexual (79 per cent) or atheist (49 per cent).” He also points out that “[t]he state of atheists in America today is on a par with that of homosexuals fifty years ago.” After eight years of George W. Bush’s rule, during which the insidious effect of the Christian Right has become all too apparent, do you think that these pro-religion and anti-atheist tendencies are so deeply ingrained within US politics that we’ll never get rid of them? Do you think we’ll see an openly-atheistic president within our lifetimes?
That’s a good question. I don’t think a person could get elected if they were openly not pulling for some god. For myself, religion has always been for the weak-minded, but that’s just me. I don’t think there ever needs to be a mention of anyone’s religion in an election. It’s really no-one’s business. I am sick of people making their religion my business. I think in the last eight years, the nutcases have been ruling the roost, but that’s going to end and they will have to go back to their television studios and sell their protein powder to their broke-ass flock.
Black Flag are now viewed as forebears of the hardcore punk movement which blossomed in the 1970s and 1980s. Since the post-grunge era of the mid-1990s, which saw bands such as Green Day, Rancid, NOFX and Blink-182 – most of which played up their “punk” credentials – achieve global success, have the original ideals of punk rock been buried beneath a landslide of studded belts, spiked hair and smudged eyeliner or do they live on elsewhere? Which, if any, of today’s better-known bands are carrying the torch for artistic integrity and unfettered creativity?
When I hear these bands, I hear a lot of derivative music. Since no one makes me listen to this stuff, I really don’t care what they get up to. I think there’s a ton of really amazing bands out there making very interesting music. Dax Riggs, Bark Bark Bark, the Mae Shi, Deerhoof, Wolf Eyes, Yellow Swans, etc. This is the kind of music I listen to from the ‘new’ bin. People who call themselves ‘Punk Rock’ kind of lose before they start. Just play and don’t worry about what it is. Of those bands you mentioned, I think Tim Armstrong of Rancid is a really good songwriter, I think he’s coming from something real. Not to say that the others are not, but it’s very obvious with him.
On a related note, what do you make of the Sex Pistols’ sporadic reunion tours? Are they a justified cashing-in on the part of the genre’s godfathers, reaping the rewards that Malcolm McLaren denied them at the time, or, on the contrary, do they represent the money-grubbing acts of four people who have sold out their past by turning a once-important movement into a pantomime charade?
Justified? What law are they breaking? Who made you go to their show? Who gives a fuck what they do? If you want to go, go. If you don’t, do something else. Johnny Lydon doesn’t care either way! He would probably tell you the whole thing was only a charade. All these things are elective, you can do what you want as far as attending and in that, long may it wave. I know [Steve] Jones: for him, it’s probably just a laugh. It’s nothing I would ever want to be a part of if the band I was in wanted to do some awful reunion.
In this age of pre-release leaks and widespread BitTorrent downloading, combined with decreasing record sales and bands like Radiohead seeking to break the mold by striking out on their own (at least to some extent), what do you think will happen to the standard contract-record-release-tour pattern? Does it have a future?
That’s a good question. I don’t know. I think in the lower ranks, little acts, like me, will always tour and release records but, for the more corporate elements, it could be all downloads and pay-per-view. I think there will always be an interest in live music and bands who want to get out there and hit it. It’s just too great an experience to go away altogether.
You’ve said that you have no objection to illegal downloading of music, on the basis that you’d “rather be heard than paid.” Does the same principle apply to the use of video-sharing sites such as YouTube, upon which footage from your spoken-word shows can be viewed by millions without any money changing hands? How about sites which stream full-length Hollywood movies, including your own, free of charge? You’re in something of a unique position as a musician, actor and spoken-word artist in the sense that all three of the standard avenues for broadcast of your work – record stores, movie theatres and DVD vendors – are potentially under threat as a result of the all-pervasive influence of modern technology.
For myself, I don’t care. What others do, I don’t know. For myself, I would rather buy the band’s record or buy a DVD rather than steal it. That’s just how I am wired. Sales of all my stuff is just fine so if there’s downloading of my stuff, I think it’s mainly bootlegs, which to me are really cool. My problem is when the guy films me and then sells it on DVD-R on eBay for a lot of money, and some kid gets a crappy shaky-cam product with bad audio and some guy makes money off someone he treats like an asshole.
How gratifying were the positive reviews for Wrong Turn 2, especially considering that horror movie sequels – and particularly those of a direct-to-DVD nature – are usually derided by critics? Would you have liked to see the film given a theatrical release or were you happy for it to remain low-key?
I don’t give a fuck how the critics like it. I didn’t read any of the reviews. I never, ever read anything written about me. For me, it was a good job. I was happy for the work and hope the director Joe Lynch uses me again. I have a copy of it on a shelf of my office. I did a lot of press for that film because Joe asked me to and I really like the guy so I did it. Past that, I didn’t think about the film at all after we wrapped out. I usually just buy a used copy of the films I’m in used on Amazon.com or at a truck stop.
How much time does it take to prepare each episode of Harmony in My Head?
Hours and hours. I give that a lot of attention. I really like putting that show together. I could do it in less time but it wouldn’t be the same. I just put together two that I will do from the road very soon, they are going to rock!
Are you still as keen on working out as you once were? How do you find time to stay in shape while you’re on the road? Are there any exercise tips you’d like to pass on to those who are keen to get fit but don’t know where/how to begin?
I work out much differently than I used to. I go for more reps and a higher heart rate. Gyms are all around. I don’t know what to advise though, everyone’s different.
Your early days with Black Flag were noted for a certain level of onstage intensity, and, looking at some footage from your recent spoken-word shows, it seems as though your anger and frustration haven’t dimmed with the passing of time. Do you feel happier and more relaxed as a person these days, or do you find it hard to step back from your work when there are still so many things in the world which piss you off?
I am not, and never have been, a relaxed or happy person. I am just not wired that way, I guess. I can’t step back from the work. I am the work. I see no separation.
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Many thanks to Henry for taking the time to answer my questions, especially in such thoughtful and verbose fashion. The photograph above was taken by Ziv Koren during Mr. Rollins’ trip to Tel Aviv for his Uncut From Israel television special.